Curse

Animate · Feb 27, 2009, 06:22 PM // 18:22

To list all skills that need to be changed would be too much..
Crucial skills are:

FF, Mending Touch - Destroy Conditionover, Make covering conditions useless
FF: Recharge to 8
Mending Touch: Remove 1..2 conditions at 0..8 prot

Rend Enchantments, Rip Enchantment, Gaze of Contempt, Strip Enchantment - Make covering enchantments useless, recharge too fast and are out of line with all Mesmer Disench Spells, punish good preprotting monks.
Rend Enchs: Recharge back to 30
Rip Enchantment: Recharge to 20
Gaze of Contempt: Recharge back to 25
Strip Enchantment: Recharge to 25

Defile Defense - punishes good preprotting monks, too low recharge
Recharge to 15

Wail of Doom - becomes OP with 40/40 sr set
Change to being a Skill and Recharge to 12, shouldn't recharge faster than veil

Burning Arrow - A skill that was neither too weak nor too strong and exactly fine for ages was buffed reasonlessly into being overpowered.
Simply change it back to the way it was before.

Read the wind - fix the bug

Peace and Harmony - Destroys Hex- and Conditionbuilds, totally out of line with other skills Blessed Light etc
Casting time to 1, Recharge to 12

Signet of Humility - remove the disable all non-mesmer skills for 10 seconds, cause this pointless shit change even disables res signets for 10 seconds

Lingering Curse - 10 mana

Palm Strike - recharge to 10

Glyph of lesser energy - scale next 1..2 spells with energy storage 0..1

Warriors Endurance - ends if your energy drops to 0

Rampage as One - ends if your energy drops to 0

Barbed Spear - Adrenaline cost to 4

Greedy Gus · Feb 27, 2009, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Nice post, agreed on pretty much everything. Personally I have a soft spot for glyph immolation and think steam should get skewered if its problematic, cause I always thought immolation was cool on dom mesmers. But your change is the pragmatic one, especially given the balance team's track record.

Ex Death · Feb 27, 2009, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Sorry but how will anything die with all the defensive buffs and offensive nerfs in the OP?

The last thing this game needs is more party healing options, although I agree with making LoD 80% health because it limits its effectiveness with other party heals. I can understand the nerfing of the turret ranger but that ward against melee would be absolutely horrible to play against and could be fast casted by mesmers.

kosh · Feb 27, 2009, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ex Death

Sorry but how will anything die with all the defensive buffs and offensive nerfs in the OP?

The last thing this game needs is more party healing options, although I agree with making LoD 80% health because it limits its effectiveness with other party heals. I can understand the nerfing of the turret ranger but that ward against melee would be absolutely horrible to play against and could be fast casted by mesmers.

that would porb what will happen, but then again you can say that just about any spell im the game atm (excluding monks with DF that actually give you something back)

it seems that until fast cast will only affect mes skills, we are doomed forever to see "Fc/insert stupid skill here" ruling midlines.

Hundbert · Feb 27, 2009, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

First logical question is who's doing skill updates now that Izzy is supposedly off GW1?

Isaiah is working on GW2 full-time, but he advises on GW1 as needed. Linsey Murdock and Joe Kimmes are two of the main people responsible for the direction of GW1. --Regina Buenaobra 19:38, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Though i'm pretty sure that izzy is still (more or less) involved in the skill updates.

Btw i like this list you compiled.
/signed

Krill · Feb 27, 2009, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hundbert

Though i'm pretty sure that izzy is still (more or less) involved in the skill updates.

Whew, I was worried he might not get a chance for his three dart board buffs thought of between brunch and lunch.

As for the other stuff, isn't it the healing from PwK that is really a problem? Running 2 PwK's, recovery and recoup really makes trying to pressure a joke...the nH vs. Land match in the mAT was a perfect example of that. nH pressured quite well to virtually no effect while they were instagib spiked with PoD. Doesn't it make sense to nerf no brainer anti-pressure skills rather than adding in equally stupid pressure skills like LC? I just don't get it.

frojack · Feb 27, 2009, 11:21 PM // 23:21

You wouldn't be able to run all that if damage got enough of a nerf so as to stop you killing anything. You'd need more offensive characters to make things die.

Jeydra · Feb 28, 2009, 12:11 AM // 00:11

I'll take a stand here and disagree with the nerf to Flail. The reason is that it's one of the few IAS'es available to Assassins. For a secondary profession you've only got a few choices after all: Frenzy (way too dangerous on low-armor characters like Assassins), Whirling Charge (10 energy cost, less IAS), Tiger Stance (20s cooldown) and Flail. By making Flail last 0 seconds at 0 Strength, you remove one more option for Assassins, making them deader than they already are.

As for the other skills, I'm mostly fine with them, although I'll say that I don't get what's the big deal with Glyph of Immo + Steam. Steam's 8-second cooldown makes it a rather ineffective Blind, especially with condition removal like RC and PnH around. I've not used it much or played against it much in GvG (I typically never play physical DPSers) but from personal experience in RA it's pretty much destroyed by any kind of anti-Blind tool, eg. Mending Touch or Antidote Signet. I also think the nerf to Lingering Curse is a bit too much. At present Lingering Curse is too strong I agree, but the nerf you propose looks destined to kick it away from play entirely.

xDementia · Feb 28, 2009, 12:56 AM // 00:56

The main source of disagreement right now is that some people say defense should be nerfed while others say it is offense that should be.

Those who think defense should be nerfed hope it's going to force teams to take less defense but as long as damage is as strong as it is now, there's no reason to take less defense. Let's take an example: what happens if PwK and WoW are weakened a bit more? Pretty sure people playing rawrway could simply switch their Me/E for an E/Rt with a third PwK/WoW.

Since Nightfall both offense and defense have been insanely buffed. Whether one has been buffed more than the other does not matter that much anymore today. The only important thing is that it has reached a point where teams can maximize defense too easily because high, spammable, compressed and to some extent hard-to-disrupt damage is too easily maximized. On a side note, there are a couple of things that are hard to measure if defense and offense buffs really need to be compared like how adrenaline builds much faster than in the prophecies days thanks to enraging charge and primal rage to name them. That kind of changes have multiplying effects that must not be underestimated.

There is a limited amount of 64 skill slots that have to be decided as to how many of them will be offensive skills, how many versatile skills like snares,shutdown skills and how defensive ones are needed? Exploiting the idea of defensive spike, there are mixed factors defining how many offensive skills to use and the main one is max health of a single character because even if people won't take it into account it is the only thing that has not been buffed apart from crappy vitae runes. Other factors like spammability, interruptability, speed, compression and power are the things that really make a skill better to take over another when it comes to building a spike that will get kills. The more powerful offense, the more room it leaves for defense.

If base hp was increased to say for example over 9000 while keeping the same damage and defense potential, there wouldn't be defensive spike because 8 people together wouldn't be able to kill a single one in the blink of an eye. Of course it's exagerated but it's supposed to show disruption and pressure would be emphasized if it happened. Considering anet thinks the pace of the game is not fast enough and their mindset that goes along with nerfing defense because people carry too much of it chances are 0.

EDIT: Forgot to say I fully agree with the wishlist

Robster Lobster · Feb 28, 2009, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ex Death

Sorry but how will anything die with all the defensive buffs and offensive nerfs in the OP?

The last thing this game needs is more party healing options, although I agree with making LoD 80% health because it limits its effectiveness with other party heals. I can understand the nerfing of the turret ranger but that ward against melee would be absolutely horrible to play against and could be fast casted by mesmers.

As other people have said, nerfing offense forces people to run more of it, so they can't fill up other slots with defense.

On Party healing, the problem at the moment is that everyone is forced to run Kaolai. Party heal options need to be in the game, and the only one for a while has been Kaolai, which is kind of stale. More options will hopefully lead to more builds and variety in the game, whereas completely nerfing Kaolai is just going to send people to the next viable option, which will probably just mean everyone's going to run Mo/E flaggers with Heal Party.

As for the Ward, I think some passive defense options need to be viable, as skills like these really push the importance of disruption and split play. With those specs I think a Sword/ Axe warrior in Frenzy will still attack every 1.33 seconds (their normal attack speed), and the ward won't cause their attack skills to whiff either. A 30% DAS in the Ward could still keep it viable though if people think that 50% would be too strong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

As for the other stuff, isn't it the healing from PwK that is really a problem? Running 2 PwK's, recovery and recoup really makes trying to pressure a joke...the nH vs. Land match in the mAT was a perfect example of that.

I think that the problem with nerfing the healing value or recharge on Kaolai is (as xDementia said) that you might just end up forcing everyone to run multiple copies of it. A 2 second cast time makes it more prone to disruption at flagstand, but it'd still be very playable on a flagger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I'll take a stand here and disagree with the nerf to Flail.

That's a good point and one I hadn't considered. I think there are huge fundamental problems with the assassin class though, and given the amount of resources available for the game it's not likely that they're going to be used a lot unless some kind of broken combination crops up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

I'm missing Recuperation on this list though.

Yeah, I missed Recup, Ancestors and probably some other skills on the list. I'm not really sure of the best way to deal with them though.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and the deep ench strips, not sure of the best way to fix those is either though.

Sk8tborderx · Feb 28, 2009, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Ranger:
[skill]burning arrow[/skill] - old burning duration.
[skill]hunters shot[/skill] - remove 1s activation.
[skill]read the wind[/skill] - fix bug.
[skill]melandrus shot[/skill] - add aftercast, or remove 1s activation, lower recharge, and lower crip duration.

Warrior:
[skill]primal rage[/skill] - 25% IAS.
[skill]flail[/skill] - 0s duration at 0 strength.
[skill]warriors endurance[/skill] - change back to stance, or 20s duration @ 14 strength, same recharge.
[skill]disciplined stance[/skill] - 1..3 duration, 10 recharge.

Necromancer:
[skill]lingering curse[/skill] - 10e, 12 recharge.
[skill]rend enchantments[/skill] - 30 recharge.
[skill]gaze of contempt[/skill] - 30 recharge.
[skill]rip enchantment[/skill] -15 recharge.
[skill]foul feast[/skill] - 6 recharge, 3/4 cast.

Mesmer:
Fast casting - Doesn't work with non-mesmer hexes.
[skill]illusion of haste[/skill] - only cripple if enchantment is removed prematurely.

Monk:
[skill]peace and harmony[/skill] - remove enchantment part of spell, increase to 10e.
[skill]light of deliverance[/skill] - old recharge and conditional, but earshot range.
[skill]restore condition[/skill] - remove 1..3 conditions, make able to self cast.
[skill]shield of deflection[/skill] - 1...5 duration, 7 recharge.
[skill]mending touch[/skill] - remove 1...3 conditions.
[skill]blessed light[/skill] - 5e, lose 5e if it removes a hex.
[skill]strength of honor[/skill] - only works with physical damage.

Ritualist:
[skill]protective was kaolai[/skill] - earshot range.
[skill]weapon of warding[/skill] - 3..8 duration.
[skill]ancestors rage[/skill] - 5-47 damage to enemies near target ally. Remove pulsing damage.

Assassin:
[skill]hidden caltrops[/skill] - 1..6 hex and crip duration, 12 recharge.
[skill]palm strike[/skill] - 8 recharge, 2...8s cripple.

Elementalist:
[skill]glyph of lesser energy[/skill] - next 1...3 spells.

That is all I could thing of right now.

(Damage, duration, breakpoints are all 0-14.)

ensoriki · Feb 28, 2009, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Trampling Ox - Turn to a lead attack version of bulls strike with 7 recharge.
That or keep it as it is now but increase the recharge to 10...

Horns of the ox - Decrease the recharge or increase damage all over by +3.

Mark of instability -Change Next time the target foe is hit by a lead attack, bring down recharge to 15.

Dash - Increase duration by 1.

Edit:

Siphon Strength- (5...17...20 seconds.) Target foe deals -5...41...50 damage. You have +33% chance to land a critical hit on this foe.

Add + an additional 1% for every point of Dagger mastery (get some hybrid builds going on)

Jagged Strike: 1/2th activation >.>

Bestial Mauling: 1/2th cast
Bestial Pounce: 1/2th cast
Savage Pounce: 1/2th cast
Toxicity: increase to 4 degen
Feral Agression: Decrease duration by 5 on everything, decrease energy to 10, increase recharge to 25.
Companionship: make the pet healing also remove 1 condition.

*runs*

deluxe · Feb 28, 2009, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra
I'll take a stand here and disagree with the nerf to Flail.

Give it the [way of the assassin] treatment then? you attack 33% faster while wielding a melee weapon
I hate sins anyway, so I don't care

FoxBat · Feb 28, 2009, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by deluxe

Give it the [way of the assassin] treatment then? you attack 33% faster while wielding a melee weapon
I hate sins anyway, so I don't care

Kills stunning strike wars but whatever...

Flail/RtW have been around for ages, its most importantly 1s attacks and secondly the BA buff that is making them playable. People run them with mtouch often enough and they still work. Killing the 1s attacks will do the job.

Divinus Stella · Feb 28, 2009, 12:39 PM // 12:39

I think the OP's changes are interesting, none of the skills are killed yet it should tone down a lot of what is broken. mainly PR and turrets.
An update along those lines would keep things fresh for a while.

Its a shame mods cant delete all the PvE players posting nerfs for RA builds (BEASTMASTERS IMBA RIGHT?) and just keep this thread with valid suggestions.

Whenitrainsitpours · Feb 28, 2009, 12:48 PM // 12:48

So you want to make Primal Rage completely dead and return warriors to Warrior's Endurance/Shock Axe?

As for Flail, I do have to kinda agree with you here. BA Turrets do incredible damage using Flail as a maintainable IAS.

As for Disciplined Stance, that's the defense for Mo/W in RA/TA as well as GvG. In RA/TA, unless you run dual monk, the monk will not have much defense. True, Guardian works too however if you're kd'd, tell me how you'll cast. This will force people to run Mo/A which isn't as effective as Mo/W.

As for nerfing rangers, I admit they are incredibly overpowered however they're the only reason builds such as Rawrspike do a lot of damage. The turrets deal most of the raw damage.

PnH is the counter to hexgay, I disagree with your nerf.

As for Strength of Honor, I'm not sure where I'll go since I've only seen 1 guild in the past month running it.

As for Lingering Curse, I agree, it's broken as hell however I'm talking about all forms of PvP, not just GvG on this.

Foul Feast, I'll agree.

As for Glyph of Immolation, lol what? Cause Immolation definitely doesn't scream fire but screams moar energehhh, right? It's fine as it is.

Steam is to blind warriors, it does have decent damage however it's main purpose is to blind.

As for your buffs, I could care less about them.

Whenitrainsitpours · Feb 28, 2009, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8tborderx

Ranger:
[skill]burning arrow[/skill] - old burning duration.
[skill]hunters shot[/skill] - remove 1s activation.
[skill]read the wind[/skill] - fix bug.
[skill]melandrus shot[/skill] - add aftercast, or remove 1s activation, lower recharge, and lower crip duration.

Warrior:
[skill]primal rage[/skill] - 25% IAS.
[skill]flail[/skill] - 0s duration at 0 strength.
[skill]warriors endurance[/skill] - change back to stance, or 20s duration @ 14 strength, same recharge.
[skill]disciplined stance[/skill] - 1..3 duration, 10 recharge.

Necromancer:
[skill]lingering curse[/skill] - 10e, 12 recharge.
[skill]rend enchantments[/skill] - 30 recharge.
[skill]gaze of contempt[/skill] - 30 recharge.
[skill]rip enchantment[/skill] -15 recharge.
[skill]foul feast[/skill] - 6 recharge, 3/4 cast.

Mesmer:
Fast casting - Doesn't work with non-mesmer hexes.
[skill]illusion of haste[/skill] - only cripple if enchantment is removed prematurely.

Monk:
[skill]peace and harmony[/skill] - remove enchantment part of spell, increase to 10e.
[skill]light of deliverance[/skill] - old recharge and conditional, but earshot range.
[skill]restore condition[/skill] - remove 1..3 conditions, make able to self cast.
[skill]shield of deflection[/skill] - 1...5 duration, 7 recharge.
[skill]mending touch[/skill] - remove 1...3 conditions.
[skill]blessed light[/skill] - 5e, lose 5e if it removes a hex.
[skill]strength of honor[/skill] - only works with physical damage.

Ritualist:
[skill]protective was kaolai[/skill] - earshot range.
[skill]weapon of warding[/skill] - 3..8 duration.
[skill]ancestors rage[/skill] - 5-47 damage to enemies near target ally. Remove pulsing damage.

Assassin:
[skill]hidden caltrops[/skill] - 1..6 hex and crip duration, 12 recharge.
[skill]palm strike[/skill] - 8 recharge, 2...8s cripple.

Elementalist:
[skill]glyph of lesser energy[/skill] - next 1...3 spells.

That is all I could thing of right now.

(Damage, duration, breakpoints are all 0-14.)

Forcing Shock Axe/Hammerway, I c wut u did thurr.

Ex Death · Feb 28, 2009, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robster Lobster

As other people have said, nerfing offense forces people to run more of it, so they can't fill up other slots with defense.

On Party healing, the problem at the moment is that everyone is forced to run Kaolai. Party heal options need to be in the game, and the only one for a while has been Kaolai, which is kind of stale. More options will hopefully lead to more builds and variety in the game, whereas completely nerfing Kaolai is just going to send people to the next viable option, which will probably just mean everyone's going to run Mo/E flaggers with Heal Party.

You're absolutely right that nerfing offense will will force more people to run it (especially right now with all the compression), but the defensive buffs will mean that the fewer slots dedicated to defense will be more powerful than before so that we're in pretty much the same situation as before of insanely boring games. When defense is buffed you need fewer defensive skillslots for the same effect as before so it essentially cancels it out. If you want deaths to actually occur in stand play then you need to nerf the overpowered offense without so much buffing of defense.

The problem with party healing right now is that there are so many powerful options which can easily be slotted all over the midline as well as the flagger. It is part of the reason why smiters are so powerful in the midline (along with castigation signet). Although I respect the fact that more party healing options can lead to more build variety, physical and disruptive pressure will never exist in this game unless there is pretty much only one form of party healing. This is the reason why stupid, degenerate skills like Lingering Curse are introduced as it is the ONLY method right now to create any form of pressure. As you said, it might mean that everyone will be forced to run Mo/E flaggers with heal party but it would at least mean that non-gimmicky pressure would be viable because monks are limited by energy in the amount they can spam heal party. Similarly, ele flaggers can also be limited with spamming heal party with well timed flagger pushes and disruption, and this was part of the reason why prophecies gvg was actually fun.

Divinus Stella · Feb 28, 2009, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whenitrainsitpours

Forcing Shock Axe/Hammerway

Shock Axe/Hammerway?

Seriously what?

moriz · Feb 28, 2009, 03:59 PM // 15:59

i really don't see the reason to nerf primal rage at the moment. at least, i don't see any reason to nerf its IAS nor IMS. it can certainly use a longer recharge though, somewhere around 12 seconds.